Wikipedia:Featured article review/India/archive4

India

Notified: Flemmish_Nietzsche, RegentsPark, Moxy, Fowler&fowler, Z1720, Kharbaan_Ghaltaan, Chipmunkdavis, Nichalp, ALittleClass, Benison, Saravask, User-duck, WikiProject India, WikiProject Asia, WikiProject South Asia, WikiProject Countries, WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors

Review section

Long overdue for this 2004 FAR which has not seen formal review in years. There are major concerns chiefly regarding the prose quality of this article. It's not up to 2025 FAR standards. The lead is bloated and large, with tons of excessive citations and awkward sentences. Lots of "trivia"-esque information in the lead which could be trimmed down. The pre-FAR discussions yielded some improvements but not anywhere near FAR quality. Simply put, even a cursory glance at the article should be ample to conclude that the prose is not at the level of other country FARs like Germany and Japan.

Just to give some examples of the poor prose.

"Kerala is the most literate state with 93.91% literacy; while Bihar the least with 63.82%" (semi-colon connecting a non-independent clause)
"Yet, India is also shaped by seemingly unyielding poverty, both rural and urban" (editorializing tone, "unyielding")
The official Indian defence budget for 2011 was US$36.03 billion, or 1.83% of GDP (the word "its" should be before "GDP").
This is accomplished by mixing—for example of rice and lentils—or folding, wrapping, scooping or dipping—such as chapati and cooked vegetables (em-dash hell)
It is the seventh-largest country by area; the most populous country since 2023;[21] and, since its independence in 1947, the world's most populous democracy (semi-colon hell in the second sentence of the lead, with superfluous information about different population rankings --- just say "most populous country" and get it over with!)

The article frequently aggressively uses semi-colons in a way that, while not ungrammatical, is not good style in my view.

On the factual accuracy, I have identified issues as well. For instance, just as I am writing this, I noticed the claim "in the Punjab, Sikhism emerged, rejecting institutionalised religion".This is misleading. Sikhism is a religion and is institutionalized in the sense that there is a central institution (the Akal Takht) which can make binding edicts on its followers. It turns out that what happened here is that the source was misrepresented. The author does not state that Sikhism was not institutionalized, but only that the first guru was influenced by a tradition that apparently rejected institutionalized religion. But, even if true, this would not establish the claim as Sikhism was borne of ten gurus and they all contributed to the formation of the religious doctrines; as it turns out, the religion did institutionalize chiefly under the latter gurus (the Khalsa).

The pre-FAR discussion is here and sparked a lively discussion. Further to my initial pre-FAR notice, other users, notably ALittleClass, have identified additional examples of poor prose and citations in the article body. ALittleClass has also noted the omission of crucial cultural aspects of India in the article; despite being a lengthy article it is rather unbalanced. I have identified further examples of this. For instance, untouchability is mentioned in the lead, but not elaborated upon in the article body except for a brief mention that it has been banned.

Concerns have been brought up regarding the article for a number of years (1, 2, 3, 4, 5) but due to inertia there hasn't been a great change to get this article up to standard. JDiala (talk) 08:15, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Other users that have given suggestions for potential changes or mediated the talk include Rackaballa, Z1720, Fowler&fowler, Joshua_Jonathan, पाटलिपुत्र (who gave a detailed and clearly very effortful list of potential image substitutions) and Kharbaan Ghaltaan. There are definitely improvements being made on the article, but the article currently does not meet our featured article standards, and a more intense period of improvement will probably be needed to get it to meet the standard (concerns have been brought up multiple times over the past 5 years, as JDiala notes). Also, if this article was nominated for GAN, there would also be multiple things flagged for fixing, but the changes needed to achieve that level may be more superficial, I'm not very experienced in differentiating between the two standards.

I would request someone who understands Indian English to review my original section of potential issues to see if I correctly identified errors, or just misunderstood the rules of the dialect. ALittleClass (talk) 08:53, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I would also suggest of removing unnecessary images from certain section, which is not irrelevant to trends of countries articles. There is also too much bias and stereotypes showing in the article Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 09:18, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Some other sentences I noticed that should be revised:

(mentioned in original post) "Economic liberalisation, which began in the 1980s and the collaboration with Soviet Union for technical know-how, has created a large urban middle class, transformed India into one of the world's fastest-growing economies, and increased its geopolitical clout." I changed "clout" to "status", but "know-how" still seems imprecise.
"Buddhism, based on the teachings of Gautama Buddha, attracted followers from all social classes excepting the middle class;" The end of this sentence basically makes me think that both the Buddhism attracted followers from both the lower and upper classes, but specifically not the middle class. Thus, the implied claim from this sentence is kind of hard to believe (although I will accept it if given evidence).
"In the 1989 elections a National Front coalition, led by the Janata Dal in alliance with the Left Front, won, lasting just under two years, and V.P. Singh and Chandra Shekhar serving as prime ministers." Unnecessarily wordy and hard to parse.
"Painted manuscripts of religious texts survive from Eastern India about the 10th century onwards, most of the earliest being Buddhist and later Jain. No doubt the style of these was used in larger paintings. The Persian-derived Deccan painting, starting just before the Mughal miniature, between them give the first large body of secular painting, with an emphasis on portraits, and the recording of princely pleasures and wars." Is this sentence set of sentences referencing two specific works or two entire forms of art? A confusing mixture of singular and plural tenses is present here, and other confusing phrasings. This "visual art" section may need a more extensive rewrite.
(Already mentioned in original post) "The dhoti, once the universal garment of Hindu males, the wearing of which in the homespun and handwoven khadi allowed Gandhi to bring Indian nationalism to the millions, is seldom seen in the cities." ...sure...
"The popularity of tandoori chicken—cooked in the tandoor oven, which had traditionally been used for baking bread in the rural Punjab and the Delhi region, especially among Muslims, but which is originally from Central Asia—dates to the 1950s, and was caused in large part by an entrepreneurial response among people from the Punjab who had been displaced by the 1947 partition." again hard to read, the em-dash is too much and needs to be it's own sentence
"India has played a key role in the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation and the World Trade Organization. The nation has supplied 100,000 military and police personnel in 35 UN peacekeeping operations." Nothing seemed wrong with this sentence, it just appeared to be potentially uncited. (unless the [271] source of the first next paragraph also covered it, I did not check deeply)

And, reiterating what multiple people have echoed, there are some gaps in the culture section of the article, most notably no writing on music.

ALittleClass (talk) 09:24, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have to say the sentiment here feels a little overblown. I don't see anything that warrants suggesting this article no longer deserves its FA star. A few queries here and there (perhaps), but the use of semicolons is reasonable in context, and while there is always room for improvement, nothing here is a major red flag. The lead is a reasonable length for an article about a country as large and complex as India. The citations there are likely included to ensure every claim is properly sourced, which is a good thing. As for "Sikhism emerged, rejecting institutionalised religion", it's not saying Sikhism is uninstitutionalised, but that it emerged under the first guru in this form. That said, I agree this phrasing could improved.

Perhaps our assessments of what constitutes good prose vary significantly, as I personally found some of the sentences cited as examples of poor prose to be even impressive in how much detail they pack (while still remaining presentable). India's history and culture are vast and naturally some are going to feel certain aspects are under/overrepresented. This will be a source of disagreement among editors so we must try to echo how reliable secondary and tertiary sources present those topics when talking about India. Untouchability should only have two or three sentences giving context on its emergence in history. I do agree there can be a few additions on music and film, but nothing too densely detailed. In its current form, the article is still very close to meeting FA criteria. In fact, the standing version today could probably be closed as a reasonable keep at FARC. Let the improvements continue, but the article is not in nearly as bad a shape as it's being made out to be. DeluxeVegan (talk) 10:38, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Citations in the lead for uncontroversial claims are MOS:LEADCITE violations. Introducing a significant subject (untouchability) in the lead without elaborating on it meaningfully in the body is a MOS:LEAD violation as this is not consistent with the purpose of the lead which is to summarize the body. It is also a MOS:JARGON violation as a technical term is introduced without defining it. At least two of the highlighted quotes (in green) I provided involve blatantly grammatically incorrect sentences. These aren't differences of opinion. They're just not grammatical. Semicolons cannot link an independent clause with a subordinate clause, for instance.

Having unusually large "info packed" sentences is not considered good prose. Splitting off sentences when they get unwieldy is considered good practice. This is the professional standard in English. This is a difference of opinion and somewhat subjective, but I believe mine is closer to the standard in professional English prose and the standard in other FA articles. The examples cited by ALittleClass are clear examples of bad prose. This is where I stand and I believe most native English speakers would concur.

As for your claim "it's not saying Sikhism is uninstitutionalised, but that it emerged under the first guru in this form", that's not clear as the sentence makes no mention of the first guru. The first guru is only mentioned in the linked source, not in the wikitext. A typical reader would take away from the wikitext that Sikhism rejects institutionalized religion. This is gravely misleading. Having your only sentence on a major religion (one that originated in India) be misleading in this way is not acceptable in an FA.

You suggest that the article can be fixed after some minor polishing but this is what has been said for years now (see linked talk page discussions). At some point we must realize that the problem is not so trivial. JDiala (talk) 11:48, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

MOSLEADCITE violation? Have you read the guideline? Although the presence of citations in the lead is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article, there is no exception to citation requirements specific to leads. The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. You can't violate rules that aren't real no matter how much they are lawyered into existence. This tendency to inflate relatively minor issues into sweeping faults runs through much of your critique.

Long-standing doesn't automatically equal intractable. I've said my part on the prose and will leave it to others to weigh in, but I see this as a strong article that just needs polishing to let the good shine brighter. DeluxeVegan (talk) 12:25, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, any guideline may be violated if there is a truly compelling reason to do so (see WP:IAR). This isn't an excuse to ignore guidelines. I haven't seen a compelling reason presented why this article's lead requires more citations than other FAs. FA criteria is clear that FAs are intended to be the very best articles the project has to offer and is also clear that the prose plays a major role in this. A sufficient accumulation of "minor issues" should therefore be adequate to revoke FA status. That said, I'm hoping the issues are resolved before we reach that stage. JDiala (talk) 18:22, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Having citations in the lead is not a violation of the guideline, it is expressly permitted by the guideline. CMD (talk) 01:25, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Citations are permitted provided the material being cited is controversial or likely to be challenged. This issue routinely comes up in FA candidacies and this is the standard. Look at literally any other FA, especially recent FAs; they have hardly any citations in the lead. JDiala (talk) 16:29, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The material which is challenged or likely to be challenged is where citations "must" be included, not where they could be included. They are permitted for use anywhere, and some FAs make liberal use of them, such as Pancreatic cancer. I do prefer a lead with fewer citations and would like them reduced, but that's a matter for local consensus, not because the guidelines say it has to be done. CMD (talk) 16:53, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The standard in FAs has always been to minimize the number of non-critical lead citations. This is a longstanding convention and routinely shows up in FA reviews. Finding another select FA where this is not met is a textbook case of cherry-picking. JDiala (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what cherry-picking is. The longstanding convention is the existing guideline, which is being misread in this FAR. CMD (talk) 08:26, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That's precisely what cherry-picking is. You're providing a singular exception (pancreatic cancer) to a longstanding convention. You can have your views but I'll just reiterate what I said: this is not the standard the community uses in the overwhelming majority of discussions on the LEADCITE issue, and you've yet to provide a compelling reason why this particular article requires a different standard. JDiala (talk) 03:08, 11 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

First you say there's a policy violation, and when that was shown to be false, you move on to claiming some imaginary standard is being flouted. How hard do you think it is to remove something? It would take barely five minutes to write a script for it. The fact that it hasn't been done means editors disagree with you and you should let it rest. DeluxeVegan (talk) 04:56, 11 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The point of FAs is precisely to recognize articles that meet standards which exceed bare policy requirements. Just because the letter (not the spirit) of the law allows infinity lead citations doesn't automatically make doing so FA-acceptable. You need compelling reasons to violate long-standing FA conventions. These have not been provided. JDiala (talk) 09:40, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The long-standing convention is that it is FA-acceptable. You are asking for evidence for an issue that does not exist. (And again, if someone says "Look at literally any other FA", providing an example of one of the literally any other FA is not cherry-picking, it is directly responding to what was asked.) CMD (talk) 01:41, 13 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose going any further. The overwhelming consensus in the talk page discussion was against proceeding to the FAR. I consider this FAR to be flagrant disregard of Wikipedia values and traditions. user:JDiala could not have their way in a different discussion (see Talk:Subhas_Chandra_Bose#Problematic_and_biased_lead_sentence) and they chose to seek vengeance by coming here. Besides, my understanding was that user:Z1720, admin and FAR regular, was attending to the final smoothing of prose, and had stated in a Talk:India discussion that an FAR was not needed. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 00:59, 11 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

By definition, a FAR process is initiated by an editor if it is deemed that internal talk page discussions have failed to keep the article up to FA standards. The point of the process is external community input when local consensus on the talk page isn't adequate. Also the consensus on the talk page was split with multiple editors in favour of a FAR (myself, ALittleClass, Kharbaan Ghaltaan) and several other editors not taking a clear stance but identifying significant problems in the article which have not been resolved yet.

The rest of your comment consists of aspersions and personal attacks better suited for ANI; I won't respond to those. JDiala (talk) 03:08, 11 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC Fowler&fowler «Talk» 10:38, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Support The article no longer meets FA standards due to major omissions in coverage, weak prose structure, and shallow treatment of complex topics.

	Text generated by a large language model (LLM) or similar tool has been collapsed per relevant Wikipedia guidelines. LLM-generated arguments should be excluded from assessments of consensus. — Newslinger talk 08:12, 8 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Coverage gaps: Entire domains central to India’s present are either missing or barely mentioned: No discussion of recent political trends, including majoritarianism, Hindu nationalism, or India’s declining press freedom rankings. Major legislation (e.g. CAA, UAPA amendments, electoral bonds) appears without analysis or political context. Climate change is reduced to one-line mentions in Geography. Missing are India’s COP positions, vulnerability to extreme heat, coal policy, and major air pollution metrics. No references to IPCC or UNEP data. The article entirely omits India’s malnutrition crisis, including key public health metrics and disparities. This is a serious gap in education and health coverage. Indian cinema and literature are nearly absent. There is no mention of Bollywood, regional industries, Pather Panchali, Bhagwad Gita, Tagore, Premchand. This is a serious omission for a cultural power. Neutrality: Caste and religious violence are structurally minimized. There is no mention of Gujarat 2002, Delhi riots, or post-1950 caste politics. Statements like “India is a pluralistic society” are unbalanced and lack critical framing. Prose and tone: The “Modern India” and “Contemporary Issues” sections read like a bulleted list, lacking synthesis, cohesion, or encyclopedic depth. Promotional phrases like “fast-growing economy” remain.

Unless this article is rewritten with depth and analytical structure, I support taking it to FARC. (Edited comment to remove "deslisting" - as rightly pointed by DeluxeVegan)

Rackaballa (talk) 02:52, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delisting is not in contention at FAR, only at FARC. Using LLMs to dissect minor points and then jumping the gun to endorse delisting can't genuinely be seen as a good-faith attempt to improve the article. DeluxeVegan (talk) 08:53, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Using LLMs to dissect minor points" - WP:BAIT Rackaballa (talk) 09:02, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The article has a lot of structural biases that need addressing, especially when it comes to caste, or the country's recent, and highly notable, rise in hindu majoritarianism and religious nationalism through Hindutva. The economy section makes no mention of the country's inequality, which is now worse than under british colonial times (It only mentions economic disparities between states). There is very little information on air pollution or climate change. Much of this is a gross violation of WP:NPOV by omission. Worst of all, this is heavily documented by WP:RS, so there isn't even a reason to not include this. The article does not view India factually but rather does so through rose-tinted glasses, which is dangerous for an encyclopedia as big as wikipedia. I support taking the article to FARC. EarthDude (wanna talk?) 03:41, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with images

There are several images that could be improved in this article: Image gallery moved to talk page. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:20, 23 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 13:19, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Also almost all images in this article give a dull impression and bad representation of India and its people. It only shows poor villagers, backward rural areas, and villages. There must be correct way to show India's traditions and culture, with balanced modern aspect too. Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 22:19, 7 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the concerns above are overblown, and I do not believe an FAR is needed at present. Many of the issues are stylistic rather than objective problems: others are aesthetic choices that could be done differently but in no way constitute FA criteria failures. With respect to images, for instance, even setting aside the euphemistic use of "mainstream" to imply "Hindu", I count ten images with religious symbolism in the article. Of these, I count five "Hindu", two "Buddhist", one "Muslim", one "Christian", and one Sikh. One could reasonably argue for more modern images, but again this is not an FA criteria failure by any stretch of the imagination. Finally, the presence of citations in the lead is not prohibited nor discourages, and any editors with experience writing about south Asia would know that the material therein is in fact frequently contentious, and the use of citations is beneficial. I recommend we close without FARC. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:57, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

One of the criterion for FAs is professional and well-written prose. Failures in that are grounds for a FAR. You write that "any editors with experience writing about south Asia would know that the material therein is in fact frequently contentious", but this is both a generalization and an appeal to authority. You would have to go through the citations one-by-one and analyze the extent of talk-page contention for each of the corresponding claims for your statement to be substantiated. In truth, the overwhelming majority of lead citations are for claims that have never been contested in the talk page. JDiala (talk) 18:29, 8 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That assumes that we discourage citations when material isn't contentious, which is plain wrong. We neither discourage nor encourage citations, and the inclusion of citations in the lead is perfectly acceptable even for uncontentious material. South Asian content is contentious, however, and the presence of lead citations discourages drive-by removals. As such it is doubly not an FA criteria failure. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:17, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"South Asian content is contentious" is misleading as not all SA content is contentious. "India is located in Asia" for instance is not a contentious statement. You need a granular analysis of individual contentious claims in the lead; this is what other FAs do, even those in controversial subjects e.g., Evolution, Armenian genocide denial and Climate Change. No one's contesting that "[a] large-scale loss of life and an unprecedented migration accompanied the partition", for instance, or that India "has disputes over Kashmir with its neighbours", yet those claims are accompanied by citations. Similarly, we have three lumped-together citations for uncontroversial statements about India's population ranking in the first paragraph. This is not the standard for FAs in 2025. JDiala (talk) 09:40, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Your basic contention of citations in the lead being a bad thing is unsupported by policy and has no bearing on FA status. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:34, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Unnecessary citations in the lead are a bad thing, not in the spirit of the LEADCITE, and routinely show up in the FAC/FAR discussions. The discussion is going in circles so this will be my last comment in this sub-thread. JDiala (talk) 19:36, 12 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your opinion on images, but not regarding FA-criteria. FA-criteria and trends both works together. Look at articles - Bulgaria, Japan, East Timor, and Australia. This article is overtly "unique" and "different" from other. Pls visit here to get more better understanding Kharbaan Ghaltaan (talk) 09:50, 9 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The post of Patliputra is a word-for-word copy of their Talk:India post of four or five years ago. Please post the link to the previous discussion here, including its xenophobic slant, as you will be able to view the opinions of the major contributors, including admins, to this post. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 01:01, 11 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The article has a lot of concerning structural biases, such as when it comes to caste, Hindu majoritarianism and religious nationalism, income inequality, pollution and climate change, etc. Without being addressed, they violate WP:NPOV quite significantly. I believe an FARC is necessary. EarthDude (wanna talk?) 04:03, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Close without FARC per Fowler&fowler and Vanamonde93. The article had a very rigorous review recently, and the regulars and admins (which include FAR regulars) have come into a consensus that the article doesn't need to proceed into FAR now. Point to JDiala: consensus is not majority or number of users supporting a view. Three editors repeating same point is not consensus, it's WP:IDONTLIKEIT. The general consensus in the discussion at the talk page was the article is upto FA standards, as seen by senior editors and, FA and FAR regulars with experience in the region. This discussion is superfluous IMO. The small prose and style issues can be discussed in the talk page and can be modified if consensus supports it. — Benison (Beni · talk) 06:06, 11 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose these image proposals. They violate WP:NPOV, such as replacing images on Islam or Christianity with Hinduism (even though the latter is given a lot of images in the article already), is highly exclusivist. Replacing images of agriculture, which continues to be where much of the population works in, with images as random as cars, seems nothing more than neoliberal fantasising. The only acceptable proposal here is for the geography section, and even then adding three images for replacing one seems excessive. EarthDude (wanna talk?) 03:56, 22 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have already given some of my thoughts at the top of the review, but more time has passed and the article has not substantially changed.

I believe this article does not meet requirement 1b of the featured article criteria, AKA comprehensiveness. Specifically, in the "Culture" section, the article does not have any body writing on many art forms one could expect in the article, such as the music of India (referenced in the lead but found nowhere within the article), theater in India, literature of India, and the media of India (such as their prominent film industry which is also referenced in the lead).

It is very much possible to make room for these additions, such as by swapping the "Visual arts" section for a general "arts" section or trimming other cultural sections, such as a paragraph in the section on clothing, which cites one source, that source being 2 pages of an argumentative book which is centered not on clothing but the cultural impact on Bollywood. I pointed out that a sentence from this paragraph was argumentative and unencyclopedic in tone, and despite getting consensus from other users to revamp this section, nothing has been done to alter or revamp it. I also posted about this general issue with cultural coverage on the talk page, gave a proposal on how to rework it, and got no response whatsoever for either support or opposition.

If this article were to be nominated for FA today with the current standards, this would definitely be flagged for something needing to be fixed before it could qualify. This entire section has not even been touched since the start of the FAR. Because of this, and also instances of prose below the FAR standard that have not been fixed, I support taking this article to FARC. ALittleClass (talk) 07:48, 13 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

India is Wikipedia's oldest country FA, now 20 years old. The country, India, a part of South Asia, has a longer and more diverse history than any region in the world outside of Africa. It was the first region to settled by Homo sapiens when they migrated out of Africa. Before neolithic cultures took root in western South Asia ca. 7500 BCE, India had a 50-thousand-year interregnum of thousands of isolated hunter-gatherer enclaves, leading to exceptional cultural diversity. India has some 25 official languages, with rich literatures of their own. It has half a dozen classical languages, among them Sanskrit and Tamil, one a standard-bearer of the reconstruction of the ancestor language of all Indo-European languages and the other of Dravidian languages, not to mention hundreds of dialects with literatures of their own. Were it not for the British East India Company gradually expanding its rule over India from 1757 to 1814, the region would have remained a diverse continent, like Europe, with dozens of countries. I believe it is unrepresentative of what FAs aspire to, to apply cookie-cutter rules to a region such as this. Canada, much compared above, is a European settler society, whose pre-settler diversity is a recent reconstruction and acknowledgment. The same, more or less, applies to Australia. Germany, with somewhat older history, nevertheless, is more culturally uniform than many sub-regions of India. Were we to be comprehensive here, the India article would become a long list; too long; or a high-level summary too abstract for most readers. The article India has more talk page archives than any FA, I wager. So much has been discussed over the years. I suggest that we be more humble in quick assessments of this page. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 14:08, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

What you leave out is that the "[discussions] over the years" often amount to you bullying away editors who point out concerns. JDiala (talk) 14:46, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I support taking this article to FARC as well for the reasons already given. I also believe if this article would be nominated today, it probably wouldn't even pass current GA standards. There are many country articles which I'd consider to be better than or of similar quality as this one but are only rated GA- or B-class. This article in its current state clearly doesn't represent Wikipedia's highest-quality of work as a FA-class article should. Maxeto0910 (talk) 14:08, 20 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You should look at the response to India's last TFA on October 2, 2019, before waxing off-handed judgments here. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 13:33, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

FARC section

Delist per above. Given the number of issues that have been pointed out, I do not anticipate they can be quickly resolved. Editing activity on the article also hasn't been high enough to indicate a serious effort to resolve issues. JDiala (talk) 19:12, 24 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per the reasons given above. Like I already wrote, I think the article in its current form doesn't represent Wikipedia's highest-quality of work as should be expected from a FA-class article. Far from it. Maxeto0910 (talk) 07:48, 25 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Close without FARC, keep as FA also supported by user:Vanamonde93 and user:Benison. Also I expect, user:Johnbod and user:RegentsPark. Most editors of FA India, I wager, are unaware of this behind-the-scenes activity. How did this get to FARC? (Redacted) Will the coordinators, user:Ealdgyth, user:DrKay, please note that Sandy G is not editing these days. Also, user:Z1720, who had planned to go through the article, please note. I last edited this article on May 30. Unexpected death and acute personal grief have kept me away from Wikipedia. At the very least, I should be allowed to review the article and update the citations over the next month and a half, until Halloween. It would be a real tragedy if Wikipedia's oldest country FA, now 20 years old, were to lose its status in such a way. Fowler&fowler «Talk» 12:33, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
You can of course update the citations if you are able, but please avoid commenting on the motivations of other editors here. (This goes for other editors as well). Nikkimaria (talk) 00:55, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
"Keep as FA": The concerns expressed above can be boiled down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Essentially, "I don't like the prose"; "I don't like the images"; "I don't like that some content is not included"; "I don't like multiple semi-colons" (sorry guys for forcing you to see more semi-colons but, hey, they do exist!). Not everyone is going to like everything and I don't see any substantial reasons given for delisting the article. In this particular article, the images, the content, the prose (especially in the lead) was all done through a consensus forming process and I see no reason why a few IDONTLIKEIT's should overturn that consensus.RegentsPark (comment) 13:36, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per RegentsPark and agree with what Fowler&Fowler said. This is such a blown out of proportion IDONTLIKEIT clearly. These 'concerns' raised here are majorly are nothing minor copyedits can't fix. Rest anything and everything can be added onto the article after getting a consensus from the editors who have been taking care of the FA for decades.— Benison (Beni · talk) 13:46, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment (Redacted) In the interest of fairness, I will ping others involved in the article and this discussion for their perspective, especially since many of them might be unaware this has reached the FARC stage: Rackaballa, ALittleClass, EarthDude, Kharbaan_Ghaltaan, Moxy. The points raised by others also lack merit. Consensus is fine as a process, but there is no guarantee that the outcome of that process results in an FA-tier article. FAs are delisted when the regular editors of an article fail to uphold the standard. That is what has happened here, in the view of several editors whose arguments have not been rebutted as of yet. JDiala (talk) 14:13, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please keep comments focused on how this article does or does not meet the FA criteria. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:55, 17 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have my own thoughts about potentially condensing some areas, although I'm not sure where they lie from personal preference to potential FACR issue, however in any case this FAR has been muddled with minor things like misunderstandings of LEADCITE to major things like the assertion that Muslims are not part of mainstream Indian society. Given this is now at delist/list without progressing beyond that muddle, it is likely best that this is closed to allow for individual issues to be raised in more focused discussions. CMD (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. The vast majority of concerns above are not policy-based reasons for revision, let alone removing FA status. Lead citations are not prohibited or discouraged in any way. The prose nitpicks are just that: no evidence of precision or clarity issues has been presented. Many of the image proposals are based on the implication that images of religions besides Hinduism ought not to be included, and carries no weight. The only serious proposal was related to the geographic images, which was dealt with on the talk page. Some reasonable suggestions have been put forward by ALittleClass and EarthDude among others as to expansions and updates in some sections, but that hasn't been the focus of this FAR, and I see no reason we cannot handle such updates through normal processes. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:51, 16 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delist. The article is factually misleading and lacks the standards of even B-class.

I will start with the very first paragraph which claims "the most populous country since 2023;[21]". Where is the evidence for this? Indian government hasnt done any population census since 2011.

Now we can enter the 2nd paragraph, which claims "By 1200 BCE, an archaic form of Sanskrit, an Indo-European language, had diffused into India from the northwest.[31][32]" The scholarly accepted date for this period is 1700 BCE - 1500 BCE. What has convinced the author to reduce a number of centuries is not imaginable for me. Then we see another misleading claim, "India's pre-existing Dravidian languages were supplanted in the northern regions.[34]" This is contrary to scholarly conensus which is firm that Dravidian languages (see Brahui language existed in Balochistan (northern Indian subcontinent) since the ancient times and were never replaced as there are still enough speakers there. I would also cite prominent archeologists such as Ahmad Hasan Dani, B. B. Lal who have found no evidence of a "Dravidian" to be having any significance in Northern Indian subcontinent. Things only get worse on the lead as you read more. The next we read is "By 400 BCE, caste had emerged within Hinduism,[35] and Buddhism and Jainism had arisen, proclaiming social orders unlinked to heredity.[36]" It is a universal fact that caste is a prevalent factor since the ancient times in South Asia. To say it emerged within Hinduism only in 400 BCE and was swiftly denounced by Jains and Buddhists is outright pseudohistory. Next we read is "Widespread creativity suffused this era,[38] but the status of women declined,[39] and untouchability became an organised belief." I am not sure if the puffery about "creativity" is needed but the degradation of women and untouchability are ancient issues. They did not emerge this much recently as the article falsely claims. The last sentence we read in this paragraph claims "In South India, the Middle kingdoms exported Dravidian language scripts and religious cultures to the kingdoms of Southeast Asia.[41]" Can anyone point me out the period before the British raj where South India and North India were connected with each other as single entity? This appears to push the Hindutva narrative which seeks to treat entire South Asia (or larger area) as a single entity for "thousands of years".

Entering the third paragraph, we see: "The resulting Delhi Sultanate drew northern India into the cosmopolitan networks of medieval Islam.[44] In south India, the Vijayanagara Empire created a long-lasting composite Hindu culture.[45]" These misleading claims are pushing Hindutva narratives that Northern India was now oppressed by the Muslims and Hindus were safe in Vijayanagar Empire. Then we read something laughable, "In the Punjab, Sikhism emerged, rejecting institutionalised religion.[46]" Sikhism is itself an institutional religion. The next sentence is, "The Mughal Empire ushered in two centuries of economic expansion and relative peace,[47] leaving a rich architectural legacy.[48][49]" It appears to claim that it is only architecture where Mughal legacy survives when Mughal legacy survives in many other things such as Indian food, music, military and more. The next sentence is, "British Crown rule began in 1858. The rights promised to Indians were granted slowly,[51][52] but technological changes were introduced, and modern ideas of education and the public life took root.[53]" This tells that the British Empire was all great for South Asia, and they were only benefitting them. How can we ignore all those man-made famines by the British Empire in South Asia? The list of their atrocities is huge. The paragraph then tells "A nationalist movement emerged in India, the first in the non-European British Empire" but fails to tell why. It is necessary when you are praising the colonial empire but the article failed to do the necessary. After that we read "In 1947, the British Indian Empire was partitioned into two independent dominions", when in fact, the British left hundreds of princely states with a choice to remain independent like a separate country. The last sentence of this paragraph tells "A large-scale loss of life and an unprecedented migration accompanied the partition." This is contrary to the fact that all of the violence was highly expected and that's why the British regime hurried it up, leaving Indians to handle the aftermath of the partition.

Finally, we are on the last paragraph which is not as ridiculous as the above however, it does include among the most outrageous claims out of the whole article, "Indian movies and music increasingly influence global culture.[66]" The cited source has been grossly stupid misrepresented.

This is my analysis of only the lead. The rest of the article has larger issues which should be resolved, however, I dont have enough hopes as per my experience with this article so far. Ratnahastin (talk) 11:25, 26 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delist - The issues raised are significant enough to warrant a delist. The long term stone walling of the article has also prevented any improvement of these issues. Chronos.Zx (talk) 05:45, 27 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per accurate analysis above. Highly unlikely if these problems will be fixed anytime soon. Lorstaking (talk) 09:47, 30 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If the problems include not stating that India has the largest population, that would mean going against what secondary sources have been saying on the matter for a couple of years at this point. CMD (talk) 13:05, 30 September 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delist: I have already given my reasons. The article either lacks or omits extremely important and significant information about the country and its current state. Worst of all, whether intentionally or unintentionally, the article gives weight to Hindutva narratives. — EarthDude (wanna talk?) 16:31, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We have people arguing to delist because the page includes too much imagery of non-Hindu religions...and you're arguing to delist because it gives too much weight to "Hindutva narratives". This is a good illustration that the page as written at least tries to be balanced - but also a good indication that delisting isn't going to achieve the changes you wish to see, and working with people who have maintained it for a long time is far more likely to do so. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:41, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hindutva is a political ideology, not a religion. Not sure the concerns are contradictory here as you're suggesting. JDiala (talk) 17:30, 2 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The point regarding imagery has already been addressed after much discussion. As several others in this discussion, including me, have already noted, the greater issue with this article lies in its countless factual misrepresentations and omissions of important information, including giving weight to Hindutva narratives. However, given the persistent stonewalling this article has faced over the years, I have little hope that it can be substantially improved in its current state. — EarthDude (wanna talk?) 07:15, 5 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There was no mention of the article giving weight to Hindutva narratives in the discussion preceding the FAR, and searching for the word in recent archives it does not seem to have been raised on the talk page in 2025. The article has changed over time due to discussions, however as Vanamonde93 notes contradictory issues have been raised. If you are considering potential stonewalling, it is worth considering that there are far more posts seeking to add more Hindu images, or change the economy section to mention poverty less, rather than the opposite concerns you raised above. CMD (talk) 10:25, 5 October 2025 (UTC)[reply]